Did you know you need to build a city the size of London EVERY MONTH FOR #& YEARS to keep up with the 10,000 people that move from rural areas to cities every HOUR?!?
Do you know the average person in Paris spends FOUR YEARS of their life looking for parking?
I visited Cisco HQ in San Jose and sat down with not only the two smartest guys in the room, but the two smartest guys in the city. Anil Menon and Munish Khetrapal discuss how Cisco is building “Smart Cities” with the Internet of Everything.
As microcosms of the Internet of Everything (IoE), cities stand to benefit the most from connecting people, process, data, and things.
Working with Cisco, in partnership with global and local innovators, cities are developing IoE-related projects, platforms, and implementations. Importantly, the IoE ambitions and scope
are designed to respond to the need for real-time, context-specific information intelligence and analytics to address specific local imperatives.
The lessons and framework from many pilots can provide other cities with a pattern language for progressing strategies, and for developing their own city initiatives.
Cities: Fertile Ground for Realizing IoE Value
Over the past few years, the definition of “Smart Cities” has evolved to mean many things to many people. Yet, one thing remains constant: part of being “smart” is utilizing information and communications technology (ICT) and the Internet to address urban challenges.
The number of urban residents is growing by nearly 60 million every year. In addition, more than 60 percent of the world’s population will be living in cities by 2050. As a result, people occupying just 2 percent of the world’s land will consume about three-quarters of its resources. Moreover, more than 100 cities of 1 million people will be built in the next 10 years.1
Today’s cities face a variety of challenges, including job creation, economic growth, environmental sustainability, and social resilience. Given these trends, understanding where we are in the evolution of the Internet is critical to future city-planning
In terms of phases or eras, Cisco believes that many organizations are currently experiencing the Internet of Things (IoT), the networked connection of physical objects. As things add capabilities like context awareness, increased processing power, and energy independence, and as more people and new types of information are connected, IoT becomes an Internet of Everything — a network of networks where billions or even trillions of connections create unprecedented opportunities as well as new risks
Given these trends, understanding where we are in the evolution of the Internet is critical to future city-planning processes.
Chuck Harold & Guests
Full text of radio show
Please forgive any typos, this podcast was transcribed by my typing pool comprised of volunteer stalkers.
Chuck: Welcome to Security Guy Radio. Sir, what’s your name?
Munish: Munish Khetrapal. I take care of solutions for Smart Cities for Cisco globally.
Chuck: And sir, what’s your name on screen?
Anil: I’m Anil Menon. I am the Global President for Smart Connected Communities in Digital Cities, so I manage the business globally. I’m sitting here in…
Chuck: Where are you? I’m sorry.
Anil: I’m sitting here in Bangalore, India.
Chuck: Another security guy, multi-national global interview. I’m so pleased about this. Now, I’m really happy to be here at Cisco. This is a big deal to me, okay, here’s why, back in the day, in 1984, I got my first computer. It was two floppy drives and it had an IBM operating system and then somebody said, “Hey there is this thing called DOS” and oh, I got to get it and I researched that and then, you know, couple of years later people put in computers and there’s this thing called Cisco and it’s called a router, what’s a router and I knew all this stuff, right and I kept saying, I got to buy some stock in all these things and my wife said no. We’re not going to, it’s too risky. We can’t do that, I’d be a freaking billionaire, because I got all this stuff early on and I love the technology and I appreciate the technology. If I could write code it would be very dangerous, luckily I can’t write code, right, so tell me about Cisco. Now, Cisco was started in 1984, and at Stanford if I remember correctly?
Munish: That’s correct.
Chuck: I think you guys had one of the first routers that being — the whole trick was you guys could upload your software to the router and do the updates, which was unique at the time, right. That’s kind of what made you different and you had some routers that lasted and switches that lasted ten years, because they were so well done right.
Munish: Probably more yeah.
Chuck: Yeah and then the name Cisco comes from San Francisco.
Munish: That’s correct.
Chuck: I always thought those two things on top of the logo were you know, network broadcasting some people they say Golden Gate Bridge.
Munish: Yes, it is.
Chuck: Yeah, very interesting, so it’s a fascinating company.
Anil: Hey Chuck. While you talk about your 1984 experience with Cisco I just have one more to add to it, which is, in my prior life well before IBM I used to be a professor and technology companies would come to see me and say, “Would you please send us your best students” and couple of my former students came to see me and this was 1991, I think, ’91, ’92 and I said “you know we are a fast growing company, this is an amazing company, this company is called Cisco, would you give us some of your best students and I still remember not knowing a lot about Cisco, because I knew IBM, I knew Digital, I knew all the others, but not Cisco. I said you know, I’m not quite sure, I want to send my best people to a company that is named after a cowboy character and there you are and there we are today, but you are exactly right, it is in many ways I think if not for the routers and the switches and Cisco being the so called backbone of the Internet we wouldn’t be where we are today.
Chuck: I agree and people do need to realize that you really were and are still I think the backbone of the Internet and to my neighbor teen who doesn’t understand the stuff, that’s how you can get on your websites and do all your stuff, right. So, it’s really important. Now we’re going to talk about Smart Cities today. This is something near and dear to my heart, because I worry about infrastructure. I’m always worried about infrastructure, all right and as we look at our cities I travel around the country a lot, right. You see cities, for lack of a better term in decay right, because we didn’t build enough reservoirs, we didn’t put the highways, we can’t fix the potholes and now cities are thinking “Hey, I got to build up the physical infrastructure, but I have to integrate that now with technology, right” and so you guys have a solution for that that I think is fascinating. I like that it’s Smart Cities because we have a lot of Idiots of [indiscernible] cities in the country so to speak and dumb cities that aren’t doing what they’re supposed to do. So tell me about the Smart Cities program and how that works?
Munish: Yeah, so probably and I’ll start here, 2001 and 2002 there was a huge building aspects in Middle East and Dubai specifically. So we looked, started looking at buildings and we started looking at saying how can technology help to improve efficiency of buildings and we had a consolidated backbone. You’ve got hundreds of different systems in the building, fire alarm, HVAC, lighting and all of these things. If you could converge all of these building infrastructure you could create efficiency, you could create improvement of energy savings, you could improve experiences and all of that stuff, so 2006-2007 there is a huge urban trend and I remember specifically, I going into Songdo in Korea, in South Korea and we had a huge piece of land and they were going to build a new city. They were going to add 250,000 people and we looked at the opportunity and said, “Hey this is a large opportunity for us.”
Chuck: From the ground up they’re going to build a city?
Munish: Absolutely. They were reclaiming land, In fact ‘90s it was completely ocean they reclaimed land over 15 years that was the fastest reclamation process and they were going to build a 250,000 people city.
Munish: That time they were…
Anil: It is the same spot where the General MacArthur landed for the Battle of Korea, exact same spot.
Chuck: Wow, that’s fascinating.
Munish: So, there were looking at about 5,000 people at that time, two or three buildings and now if you go there ten years from there it’s about 100,000 people. It’s getting populated, so we started thinking about what can we do as a city. If you start thinking about how land has, how land is built, how roads are constructed, electricity, water pipes and all of that. Internet and IP today is an equally important capability where people have to connect information and we know a lot of our children specifically if you don’t have Internet they are lost. They don’t mind having, no dinner is fine, but you better have the Internet connection on. So, connectivity would improve a whole lot of efficiency and if and then you start thinking about the rapid urbanization and rapid urbanization specifically around…
Chuck: Rapid urbanization, that’s an interesting term, okay, but define that for me.
Munish: So, people moving into cities from rural and in 2006 there were more people living in cities than in, more people living in cities than in rural areas.
Chuck: Now this is worldwide in general, right.
Munish: Worldwide in general.
Chuck: In places like Detroit…
Anil: Today, Chuck I think on an average 10,000 people are moving from rural areas to cities per hour worldwide which means…
Chuck: Per hour?
Anil: In order to keep up, in order to keep up with the urbanization that is taking place, the point that Munish was making, you have to build a city the size of London every month for the next 36 years to catch up.
Chuck: All right, hold on a second. My little Security Guy Radio brain just had a short circuit. You have to build a city the size of London once a month.
Anil: Every month. Every month till the end, till for 36 years.
Chuck: Every month. For 36 years.
Anil: In order to accommodate the rate, so if you come into parts of Latin America, Africa, India and Asian countries what you find, for example, a city like Bombay which is 20 plus million 70% of the people there are living in what would technically be considered to be slums, because the infrastructure is incapable of handling that and managing it and the same thing applies to the road traffic, same thing applies to water, same thing applies to lighting, same thing applies to healthcare, the whole country of Tanzania of 43 million people with a highest birth rate and the highest child infant mortality or heart condition, there is not a single pediatric surgeon, not one single pediatrics radiologist, not one single pediatric pulmonologist. So this entire infrastructure thing it’s just collapsing under the weight of urbanization and you can’t stop it, because people are leaving urban — rural areas to come to urban areas not because they want to live in these horrible conditions, but because of lack of urban services in rural areas, healthcare, education, jobs and some culture, so this inexorable shift is what Munish is talking about.
Chuck: Unbelievable, that’s very amazing, interesting and people don’t want to stay in there, we don’t, we’re not going bring the city backwards to the urban areas, wouldn’t that be easier? We can’t stop it people want to be where that they think infrastructure is, very interesting.
Munish: Absolutely and there is some more anecdotes, about 600 people on a daily basis move into the city of Bangalore. There are about 300 children that mean, that means you need one school a week to be constructed to educate those children.
Chuck: Which isn’t happening, I assume not even close, right. Wow.
Munish: You can spend four years of your life finding parking in downtown Paris. That’s an average time you spend, because you take 30 minutes a day and you add that up that’s four years of your life.
Chuck: Yeah, yeah. Well, I think in LA it might ten years. It’s crazy, I mean it’s, it is true that we have never been able to keep up with the growth and I’m happy to hear you guys talking about this from a technology point of view, because I think that is a solution, so tell me how you guys…
Anil: But, you know, you said something which is very important and I just want to take a second, because Munish particularly drives that quite a bit, but you mentioned the word ‘infrastructure’ and I think there in is where we came in. You said you have physical infrastructure the things that Munish talked about buildings and roads and parkways and ports and airports and green spaces, so Governments, Mayors and everybody have been thinking about the physical infrastructure, but they have ignored for far too long the digital infrastructure. That would be the equivalent of saying, I’m going to build a building today or build a city and let’s worry about the water and electricity, but we’ll worry about, I’m sorry we have built the buildings, but we’ll worry about water and electricity later. I don’t think anybody does that, but today they are doing something similar to that when they think in terms of digital infrastructure, so for example and if you think about the same thing was true a 100 years back in London 1914, 1913 there were 65 utility companies with 49 different standards that didn’t, that just couldn’t work with each other.
Today that’s not, we have that situation in most cities with Wi-Fi and digital, you know, you have all the hotspots and all the Wi-Fi systems and all the different infrastructure companies providing different forms of connectivity and they don’t really integrate and that is where we come in. I mean, Cisco you mentioned switches and routers. We are in the business of making protocols that don’t talk to each other, talk to each other. That’s what a switch does, that’s what a router does, so that is why we got involved saying, we know how to make all these technologies, while you may have a, you know, one of the things that Munish drove early on were building automation systems. So you may have a smart building automation system, you may have the smart HVAC system, you may have a smart lighting system, you may have a smart elevator, but the protocols don’t talk to each other, you really don’t have a smart building.
Chuck: That’s right. You have a dormant building.
Anil: How do you make it? That’s exactly it.
Chuck: Well, I agree with you 100%. I think part of the challenge is this, here is my take on it, so I’m 55 years old, I did my first computer in ‘84, I grew up with the stuff, I get it. My peer group did not, 90% of my friends they’ll balance their check-book with Quicken, they don’t get it, alright and they go, “How could you do that?” It’s old school. Some of our leaders in that place, they’re of an age where they kind of missed the technology. You know, you guys went to school early, you got it. There’s my kids that get it, but there’s this group in the middle, that have not come of age, they are leading cities and leading people and I don’t think, you know, either one of our presidential candidates know a thing about email, right or how to, to do anything, so how do you take a leader and sell this to him, right and this is the big challenge. It’s not that they are not intelligent, that’s just not their thing, right and it is about integration, so you guys really if you think about it on one level you’re integrators, right, because your routers and switches could always speak to the networks and so you’re in the proper position to do it, right. So, how do you, how do you handle it? Are you going beyond the routers and the switches now and getting into more than connectivity, how you’re handling it?
Munish: Yeah, so if you take a little bit of step back about three to four years back, we used to spend a lot of time talking to the leaders across and Mayors across the world, saying what is a smart city, what will it do? Couple of years back in, we had this IoT World Forum in Barcelona. We educated people and we said, here is how the City has been built, here’s how lighting happens, here’s how parking, waste management it improves efficiency, so it was an education session. When we moved to Chicago, we had an IoT World Forum in Chicago. We did not talk about what’s a smart city any more. We talked about how do we start building Smart Cities, where, where do we start, where is the biggest bank for the buck, what kinds of capabilities we need to look at? Last year, in IoT World Forum in Dubai, all the leaders we were talking to, saying we got it, we know where to start, we need to start lighting and traffic and parking, these are immediate impact areas, but let’s now see how do we fund it? So, the education of what a Smart City is we really moved in that area.
Chuck: Now do you think it’s…
Anil: I just want to add, I want to add one thing to what Munish said, which is an important one, which is your point is absolutely well taken that there is a certain level of understanding and then there is a certain level of misunderstanding and a certain level of lack of understanding and there are three levels.
Chuck: Good points. Yeah.
Anil: And let me take each of those in a particular way and obviously, lot of the Mayors get the idea that digital and digital technologies are important for the citizens and the businesses will be better understand it, we better deploy it, just like we did with the other utilities, but you also have different levels of misunderstanding as to what they are and one of the biggest misunderstanding, one of my biggest frustrations to the fact when you talk about Smart Cities they equate that only with technology and they say Smart Cities equal Digital Cities and one of the things we keep saying is that, technology is only an enabler, a city is not going to be smart unless you have the processes, you have regulations, you have, you know, standards all of which that allows you to deploy it in such a way that transform the delivery of urban services.
So for example, you know, just one example would be, there are privacy laws or even work labor laws in some countries where you may put a camera, but then a person has to come and write the ticket and hand it over, because of, when that happens the experience is not going to change for a citizen and also your expenses will not change. Your operational cost will not change because you haven’t changed the infrastructure, you haven’t rethought the way city would be operated and managed.
So, the whole idea that we come through is we always say it is about zoning policies, it is about public-private partnerships, it is about making sure that the citizen’s experience and the soul of the city is managed and technology just enables you to do some things that you could not do before and then of course, you have classic misunderstanding of what issues are and the most common, which I know is a topic dear to your heart, but I’ll come to that. I’ll just give you one practical, this is absolutely true story in presenting to some Ministers, very high-level Ministers in a country, it’s an emerging country, so I won’t mention the name of the country for obvious reasons you’ll know in a minute. We talked about how you could take all this data and put it into the Cloud and then you can enable, you know mobile and all the others and the Minister seriously said, “Well we have serious monsoons in this country. You put anything into the Cloud you’re not going to be able to make it.”
Chuck: I believe, I know.
Anil: So, I’m not quite sure, I didn’t have the heart to ask him, “Do you actually think we’ll put it in a balloon all the data it sits in the Cloud” you know, the point is for him a cloud is a physical thing that he was thinking about, so I didn’t even want to talk about, cloud computing which is what we have been pushing, because that will have a different set of conversation right away, but the thing that comes back is, I think very often what happens is, there are concerns about privacy of data and especially in different parts of the world there are different standards and second one is the security of the data and hacking and very often they get comingled and there and it’s the biggest level of misunderstanding that we have to deal with when we deal with the political side, with the civil side and the technology side.
Chuck: Yeah, I agree. I had AMAG on my show couple of weeks ago, right. So, they’re the big access control people, right and they have, you know, the same model they’re going to integrate stuff into the building so this all works together. His biggest challenge, the Vice President tells me is that, everything eventually is policy driven, right. So, you guys can wire up LA tomorrow let’s say Burbank, Burbank’s better, let’s wire up Burbank, get it all working, everything talks to each other, we have all the technology, but if the city’s policies think that the cloud is up, you know, a physical cloud, the policies aren’t going to work and then the whole system doesn’t work, so how do you handle the policy integration with your Smart City approach, right, because really that all has to be integrated, we have cameras that capture license plates and you know, that’s great, but if the policy says, we write tickets for everybody instead of writing tickets for some people, then you have, you have disruption, right. How do you handle the policy discussion when you start to wire a city up?
Munish: So, when we look at policies, the whole security privacy framework we break it up into a PPP model, it’s not Public-Private Partnership, it’s Policy, it’s Privacy and it’s Process and you need to bring these three together using security as a technology as an underlying factor to enable policy to be better, enable process to be better, enable the privacy to be managed.
Chuck: You start with a policy; so you think that’s a better place to start?
Munish: So, most of the time the conversation start with privacy as we see in cities.
Chuck: It does start with privacy, okay. That’s interesting to me.
Munish: That’s where really the conversation starts.
Chuck: When I wanted to sell something at Fox right. I, if I want to bring in the latest technology, latest widget or gadget or whatever was right. I had to start with the executive level and get a buy in, right, because if they bought into it and they got the idea and they thought it was good. They drill the policy downstairs to tell people, this is coming, we’re going to put this in, not and if I try to put it in first and then make a policy out of it, I usually failed. That was my experience. I’m talking about access control in 1996 where nobody had access control, you know, that kind of stuff, so it’s interesting, I know everybody’s worried about the privacy technology. Do you think they don’t understand it, which is why they are more scared about it?
Munish: I think it’s a question of awareness and you’re probably right. Understanding is one aspect of it, but it’s also about the fear of unknown. It’s about educating people and we worked with the Kansas City very recently, where the government and the city government, every week used have a session with the citizens telling them what exactly they’re doing. How they are lighting the streets, how is it going to improve the overall economic welfare, how is it going to decrease cost, how is it going to create values. Citizen engagement kiosks where people can go in and engage with the city, they can provide inputs on how the city should be governed, they can get information on what’s happening, so it’s all about engagement and education. Once people understand what they are getting into, it becomes lesser of a concern. In fact, it does not. It’s not a concern at all.
Chuck: You know, I…
Anil: Hey Chuck.
Chuck: Yeah go ahead.
Anil: One, there is a significant difference between, although it seems from a technical point of view what you brought up the 1984 issues and policies while it’s technically comparable to where we are today. There is a difference and you know the thing is, when we started with the Internet and when we started talking about networking and the whole World Wide Web in ’83, ’84, there was nothing there to replace it. There was nothing there before that this was replacing in some ways, it might have been replacing, you know, faxes and all of that, but it’s a very different story. Today when we go into lighting, there’s a 100 year installed base of doing lighting and water and the way the cities have been managed. So today when we go and what they’re trying to do is, is they are trying to force fit what we do within the existing model of running a business, the existing budget systems, the existing regulations and that is where the struggles begin.
Chuck: Oh, good point.
Anil: Because high load – talking about the policy they are saying, we have a policy of not doing this. I’ll give you an example. In, Dubai when we started out and we were doing this lightings, Munish can tell you, the biggest challenge we had there was that during the day they would not be sending electricity to the lighting poles, because they didn’t need it, but we did need electricity to the lighting poles so that we can run the cameras for traffic.
Chuck: Oh, good point, yeah.
Anil: That policy change was not as simple, even at Cisco when we tried to integrate and Munish was driving a lot of that, when we tried to integrate our outlooks with the building management system so that all the office spaces can become very comfortable and you can see when you walk out of the Cisco room you can see, you know, not only the layout of the office spaces and the conference room but who is using it and up to when, that took us almost six to eight months, just to get the policies changed to get privacy issues and HR issues, technical things to align. So the biggest challenge we have sometimes is that there is an installed base and I remember my former boss, our former boss, [indiscernible] at the IoT forum in Barcelona saying that God was able to create the world in seven days, because there was no installed base. He didn’t have to change it.
Chuck: That’s a good point.
Anil: That is not the case…
Chuck: No, it’s a great point. I used to, you know, Fox and Disney sent me to all these corporate, you know, training things all the time. I’m very fortunate to have that background. One of the things they used to teach is, if the Titanic was going to turn around it took, you know, three miles to do it, it just doesn’t just turn around right away, because it’s a big giant thing and requires a certain process, right and so the frustration what we see is that the technology is here, all the Internet of things, computer geeks and people that know what they’re doing can all turn it on tomorrow, but I love your point that this is coming up against this policy block and if the guy in the city says oh, no our policy is we don’t turn the lights and it’s going to take you a year to change it, because it’s a bureaucracy and in some cities or places more than worse
Anil: You know, you take that example, let’s take France and Paris as an example, where data privacy and where the data is located it’s almost a religion, it’s almost sacred and it was a non-negotiable discussions for a long time till the Paris attacks.
Chuck: Oh, that’s interesting.
Anil: After the Paris attacks even the citizens said, “Listen that information existed, but because of some of our privacy laws and because we couldn’t take the data from one parish [phonetic] [0:22:51] to the other that was restricting our security, so now the question is not whether we should or not do it, it is the level and degree as to how we would do it, who would get it and how is it going to be used. So, I think we’re going to evolve to that stage of not whether you’re going to collect the data and not whether you’re going to use the data as much as who is collecting the data, who is going to use it and the citizen or the one from whom the data is coming will have a bigger say, as to how much of data they are willing to give up.
Chuck: Now Burbank has a smart meter supposedly not too smart, because my electric bill keeps going up when I want to keep using like less electricity, right. And allegedly it’s tied in to the Wi-Fi and this is preventing the meter guy from coming out and you know, they never open up my water cover at the parkway. So, I know they’re not going check on my water, so my bill has gone up since the smart technology is put in place in Burbank. I have mixed feelings on the information thing, right. So I opted into this and I to your point if people want to opt in and participate say, “You can have my data, you can use it that might be a place to start,” have you looked at policies that way where if you come into a city, you can say look anybody that doesn’t want their data we are just not going to collect it, is that a possibility?
Anil: That is daily Munish’s life, Munish has got more stories to tell you on that than any other.
Munish: And that’s really a process issue, but coming back to policy and process and how they can interact with each other, this is in fact, right now we’re on our third generation platform for cities itself and we’ve progressed.
Chuck: By the way, I forgot to ask, how long have you been doing the Smart Cities?
Munish: That will reflect my age, about eight or nine years.
Chuck: Really that long, okay.
Munish: So, the first generation when we walked in and especially in Korea, we had 21 agencies collaborating over 3,000 pages of process and policy documents.
Chuck: 3,000 pages?
Munish: Of process and policy documents and how a Smart City needs to be built driven by the Central Government, so Korea had the vision of Smart Cities in 2001. They wanted, they knew that this is going to be a differentiation factor and we could, we started building a whole platform and technology to have an end-to-end integrated approach, because the process and policy allowed us. After the whole real estate issues that happened in 2008 and when Europe and US started looking at Smart Cities in a big way, we realized all the things about having existing infrastructure installed base became a big issue. So we had to rethink our whole strategy as to how we would build our digital platform, because you cannot have an integrated platform.
So, now today, in today’s offering that we have and the way we are taking it to the market is we are looking at a capability, where each of the departments can store the data, can have their own policies and processes. Like think about you going to a bank locker, you can store, you have your small subset locker, you have a big infrastructure, which is the bank, which is the Cloud infrastructure and each of them have the key and the bank has their key as well. Now if the transport department wants to share the data to the lighting department they can give that access to that key. They can tell them that I want to share only this piece of data and no other piece of data, because all the lighting department needs to know is where is the traffic flow, where there is congestion, if there is no traffic between 4 in the morning and 6 in the morning. I can reduce the luminosity of light from 90% down to 40%, save energy without impacting security.
Chuck: I like that approach. I think that’s a great way to do it. However on the other side of it, do you lose analytics, do you lose the 30,000 foot view of how everything together is operating, if you’re putting that data into silos, right.
Munish: Right, so having the key and giving the information to each of the agencies to maintain the privacy, maintain policies and ensure the processes are built are important, but now as a City Manager and as a Mayor if he wants to start integrating all of these systems and data he has the access to the key or he can, he’s like the Central Bank and he has access to the key and he can say I want to bring all of this piece of data which is not privacy-related, which respects the policy, we bring that to improve analytics and improve capability and experience and one of the cities we are engaging with, is they have a radar sensor that’s monitoring how many cars are stopped at a traffic signal and based on that they can decide to change the traffic controls and improve efficiency and flow which we all want better traffic flow.
Chuck: Oh, absolutely. Yeah.
Munish: But, now he can take the data and give it to his marketing department who will sell the data to a billboard right opposite to the traffic signal to say, “Every time a car is stopped at the traffic signal I’m going to charge double the amount for advertisement, because the eyeball is going to look at it.
Chuck: That’s strange. Well, yeah it comes back to for that kind of stuff too.
Munish: So, he can increase his revenue, fund the whole automatic transmissions and all the traffic control systems, so that he does not have to pay anything extra, improves the overall efficiency of the city, without any cost to anybody.
Chuck: Yeah. This is important stuff. I remember the City of Beverly Hills back in the day probably they might have started this in the ‘80s or ‘90s. The intersection of Wilshire and Santa Monica, I think is the busiest intersection in the world, one of them something like that it’s like you know, 40,000 cars an hour it’s a crazy thing and so Beverly Hills had congestion problem and what they did is they just kind of studied it, like you just said, it’s old school manual study, right and they came out with the policy. The policy was we’re going to turn Santa Monica Boulevard Green for three miles all at once, all lights will be green at the same time and we’re going to run that for two minutes and guess what you can get all way through Beverly Hills very quickly that way and what it also, there is a secondary thing is to cut down on crime in a way, right, because you’re not loitering around, stuck in the city, looking at stuff what’s going on, it’s like you go to Beverly Hills, do your business or you don’t, right. So, this is really important stuff and I’m wondering my question is; how much do you guys think of this data you’re analyzing, collecting and you know, chopping up. How much is privacy, how much is not privacy? I mean, is it, you know, what color the light is, it’s not really a privacy issue, right, but my license plate is, maybe, but I say guess, what your license plate isn’t because you’re out in the public with it, right. Who owns it, yes, the plate itself, no I mean, see what I’m saying how do you handle all those different levels of concern?
Munish: Yeah, so I think the technology itself, there are different technologies that implement or execute on the different privacy concerns, so if, example if you go to Germany, you’ll find that their privacy filters that if you’re looking at how many people are in front of a bus stop, they will ensure that the faces are completely cleaned up, even though it’s a video feed and their privacy filters and technology allows that to happen and you can have a radar sensor that’s just counting the cars or counting information. It does not know really which car and who is driving…
Chuck: It’s dumb right.
Munish: It’s dumb, but it’s achieving the purpose, so you have the technology and you have different options in technology. On the other hand if you want to use License Plate Readers when you’re going into a parking lot, because you want to find out how many people came in, how long they came in and you want to bill them accordingly. I’d love to have a License Plate Reader when I go into a parking lot because I don’t have to stop. I can connect it to my credit card. I drive right in and in Korea they’ve implemented that, so you drive in with the license plate they read it and when you drive out they read your license plate and bill you for the difference.
Chuck: Well and this can all be done on my, you know, my side of the business for security, right, physical security. If I’m at Disneyland and I had a License Plate Reader and I found out that your license plate comes in here three times a week between seven and ten and 12 in some pattern I might say, “Wait a minute, I got a, you don’t love Disneyland that much, right. It would indicate it could be some kind of a criminal act or something, right. So, when you’re working with governments on this, the efficiency part I get, right, but do they are they concerned, I mean the privacy thing I don’t get with the video in Germany, right. So, I’m in public, I’m walking around, what’s my privacy issue? You can see me driving down the street, right. So, do you have a lot of different policies around the world with this kind of stuff, is it, it seems like there’s all over the board with this.
Munish: It’s very, very different.
Anil: You know, you know, you’re making a very interesting point, because I think privacy is a very cultural issue.
Chuck: It seems like it.
Anil: It is not just a technical issue. Just to give you a sense I mean, if you think about the way my kids and the younger kids use social media, I’m not quite sure their definition of privacy is the same as mine. They are very open — talking about what is happening to them to the levels that you’re like seriously you’re putting that up on, on Instagram and all the others that’s one. You gave a very interesting example I’ll give you one in Bangalore, when at the airport. Now what is interesting about the Bangalore airport and you’ll see this increasingly worldwide, a lot of the airports are becoming private, that they’re being handed over to private companies who are then running it on a concession plan or permanent plan where they have a sort of an SLA with the governments on what performance, which means that they look to monetize everything that is around the airport and the flying experience. So they put these cameras and what they find and in fact it’s true even elsewhere, if you want to look for cars you give the example of why these cars are moving around. They found a case where on many instances, where you saw a certain level of cars coming in and leaving, right. It’s clear that they were running a private taxi service.
Chuck: Oh interesting.
Anil: They’re not running a taxi with a license, so they could then go back and track them and say, “What are you doing here seven times a day? And if you’re coming here seven times a day, you’re a taxi. I don’t care whether you say it’s a private license” so it keys a whole bunch of things that pops up in this so-called shared economy and Uber world, which is why many cities try to shut down Uber and I keep saying “You can shut down Uber, but you’re not going to shut down Uberism” because people want that service. They like the service in some form, so I think on privacy what’ll happen increasingly is that as people understand and they recognize for personalized medicine, if you need to know how this medicine is going to work on you specifically, you will have to give up some of your personal information on your behaviors and how you’re consuming it and how are your life patterns are because for you that medicine dosage is most optimal at 10:30 in the morning, because of your genetics and because of your lifestyle as opposed to at 8:30 for somebody else. People will realize and then I think people’s willingness to give up data is a commensurate with what they think they’re getting back for that data and how much control or what might happen, that’s bad.
I’ll give you a simple example, that is so irritating that to me it goes well beyond privacy issues to just stupidity. Last week, was mother’s, two weeks ago was Mother’s Day and also Mother’s Day and my wife’s birthday is the same day, so I was searching for cards for us on Papyrus. I swear to God, I cannot turn on or go to Google, anywhere without having Papyrus ads come at me and they’re showing me the same cards that I bought.
Chuck: Oh, yeah. Yeah. They’re little evil.
Anil: A, that is stupid marketing, B, what other information are you collecting of mine that you may be using and who is using it. So I think it is that kind of information that leads people to nervousness I think.
Chuck: Well it’s, we’re really at the level of “Minority Report” remember that movie?
Chuck: Tom Cruise?
Chuck: I mean, he walks through the mall and they scan his retina and says, “Hey Tom, would you like some cornflakes” and you know, so I look at it two ways right. I’m quasi-public. I got like, you know, bunch of followers, I got a bunch of stalkers. I’ve arrived because I have stalkers that send me weird stuff on the Internet, right and I look at it two ways. I say, nothing’s private to me, you know, what? I’m not hiding anything, I got nothing to worry about my life, I don’t have any secrets, go for it and I protect my infrastructure locally. I protect my house, I protect my data that kind of thing, right, because I think if you, the hard you try to lock it down, the more risk you sometimes run, right, in making the data available. Now one thing about terrorism is they get about 85% of all the data they get on us is open source.
They don’t have bunch of spies running around, they have 85% of the people looking on the Internet saying, “Hey, let me get a building architect plan for the studio over here, right and they find it, right. So, I’ve thrown this idea out to a couple of people. I know it sounds crazy, but I throw it out anyway. You know, what if everything was in open platform, an open architecture and I had access and nobody had everybody has everybody else’s numbers or privacy things, then there is no privacy, but then there’s no risk of anything being stolen, misused, right. So, if you make it so secret it becomes valuable right.
Anil: You did, you just said Chuck, you did what you just said and go back to something that Munish and I have talked about quite a bit and we actually have that and Munish maybe, I’ll just put it up and you can, you can build on it with what we’re trying to do in Hamburg and elsewhere. Here issue today, you just go into the streets and you’ll see there’s a camera for police, there’s a camera for traffic, there’s a camera for private, you know, whatever the private buildings may have or whatever. That means you have three to four infrastructures of cameras and the argument is that, police needs to have different levels of information that say the traffic police and definitely certain different levels that is needed by private or quasi-private entities. What if you had the same feed, but you put protocols that the grades, that data feed to a different level of clarity for different uses. Think of it as workloads and then say the police will get a different set, because the policy is written for that.
We have all our financial data on one platform inside Cisco, but depending on your organization, depending on your level in the company and you need to know there are protocols put into play that suggests that you’re not going to get this kind of data, you’ll get a different aggregation than somebody else would. You could do the same thing when you’re walking around as an individual, you may be able to do, in some things be able to say, “I know you need to know that I’m a male, that I’m of a certain age, but you don’t need to get an exact picture of my face,” so I’m going to put up some kind of protocol that doesn’t allow you to take the clarity of my eyebrows or my eyelids, I’m just saying you could get to that level where you can do it, because one of the things that I’m seeing in many cities and the reasons why labor unions and the others are resisting it, is because they feel I don’t want my boss to know if I’m in a different location or even for that my family if I’m at a different location than I said I was…
Chuck: Yeah, information is power.
Anil: Plenty of reasons for it, but Munish, this idea of protocol and policies and degradation of data or at least some kind of manipulation of data so as to see that same data is available to your open platform idea, but it’s that data is not useful, it is the insights you draw from the data, which is nothing, but policy-driven and it is that level that we should be also thinking about.
Munish: Yeah and so technology is the way we have implemented some of these technologies in Hamburg we have implemented, where you’re figuring out how many cars are going around of this. Somebody stop the trucks that can be stopped at a neighborhood area, which is basically waiting for their time for going into the port, which is about a couple of kilometers away, so that creates congestion, security problems, physical security problems, so there are cameras that are there, that actually can monitor that if there are trucks parked there, but if there are people moving around, there’s a privacy filter that filters off the face and it says that there are people moving there, so what you’ve really focused on is the information of how you’re looking at that data and trying to then implement a privacy or a policy related item and those technologies are there and the options are there for people, but again, bringing it back to privacy and how we, how we are thinking about it from a technology standpoint, so some of our video sensing technology, we encrypt the data and keep it at the node where it, the information is and all you’re doing is you’re sending that, there’s a car park, there’s a car not parked. There’s traffic and here is a car that went in this, at this speed. That’s all we want to know, because that’s how you manage your congestion…
Chuck: Yeah, you’re sending back, you’re sending back a, you know, a yes or no in the database field and not the picture, not the image, not that. So if you translate the images into data, I could see that would be more acceptable by people.
Munish: Privacy compliant, but again, privacy itself is very, very personal and emotional. The amount of data you give to your retailers and the amount they know about what you do or your banks or even your social websites is much, much more — than what the government even as the technologies do…
Chuck: Well, there’s a pro, program out there, a program it’s a system called Geopedia, I don’t know if you ever heard of it, so Geopedia captures social media for Law Enforcement for, you know, “Hey, this guy wants a pizza, because he keeps tweeting about pizzas, let’s sell him more pizza, right.” They really started out the advertising business, but they really moved into the security field and saying, “Listen, here’s all the tweets and Instagram and Facebook posts from Paris and by the way, if we had this data, when the first lady at the airport at 7 am said, ‘Hey, I just heard an explosion’. If the cops had that, or watching it, maybe they could have got out there faster, maybe a different outcome, right.
So, it’s interesting that we don’t view our social media as private to your point about your kids, right. They think everything is open source. “Hey here is me at a party with my shirt off,” right. We don’t view that as private, but I think people assume it is, but it’s not… it’s out there. I mean I’m going to do a show, where we’re going to go over that whole Paris thing where we’re going to see all the live social media at the time, right. So, this is a really difficult situation and subject because it’s hard to, it’s hard to integrate people’s thoughts and emotions and feelings and make something work and you can’t make everybody happy, right.
Munish: Optionality, as long as you give the citizens an option for enabling them saying,” Okay if I have my wife and daughter walking in an unsafe neighborhood I want the camera, video camera looking at them and I want the police security. So, it’s optionality is I think what people…
Chuck: Yes, but here is what I, when you say that word, I like that word, okay, but when I put it back to security, it comes down to managing exceptions and eventually if you have too many exceptions to manage your rule goes away and the rule is, I am going to break this down to simple access control the rule is, you don’t come in a Cisco building without a badge and that’s the rule and it’s easy to implement, but we say oh if we got Chuck, but he has got a Security Guy Radio show we go let him in, the whole system collapses, right. So, and we’re doing policies we‘re sitting and talking about these things that do they have policies in place where they say, “Listen, this absolutely has to be a hard rule” or is it more about the option thing. I mean because you put the options in there and it can get lose. Does that make sense?
Munish: Yeah, but the options come in from people themselves, right. So, if you have a city and then that can get aggregated into the government and the process, so in Germany the policy, of the privacy thing is, you, I don’t want to be… I don’t want to be monitored by…
Chuck: So, citizen can participate in this?
Munish: Participate and then you define that policy and then that becomes the rule. Like you said Cisco badge nobody gets and if that’s the rule that everybody in Cisco feel that’s the best way to do it and then everybody follows that process so….
Anil: You know I think that there is such a thing as it’s a social contract that is emerging globally as to what should you know, about me and what is appropriate and that’s not just in the examples we’re using, it’s going to happen for everything, because we’re now saying a lot of things to our laptops to say it made my life a little easier in some ways, remember my passwords, remember, which sites I’ve gone to and I don’t know… The kinds of things that we put in place, but you know, let’s take the examples two things. One is Indonesia, tried a lot of stuff on predicting floods because they were having serious flood issues and when, when you have and when you live in a place that has flood issue you have a different appreciation your sense of privacy, if you’re stranded in particular, so they’ve tried predictive analytics with open data met, all the existing data past data and they realized that cloud sourcing was the most effective way of predicting and managing through flooding, so now they have created these open data platforms that the government used where their citizens are putting in the data.
Anil: They are finding that to be more predictive. I, look at… ways, you know, the ways is absolutely fantastic because it’s crowd sourcing. Now suddenly you’re sitting in… If it gets better and better and you make that system, it’s going to kill that radar detector industry, because suddenly it says, “Police up ahead.”
Chuck: That right, that’s right.
Anil: What is amazing about that is, at some point, you could start putting, you know, when they say is this, was there really a police, was it something on the side and I believe that each of the individual way, ways guys, you’re going to register yourself as known or unknown, you will soon get some kind of eBay rating equivalent, will say that these people might get a higher levels of information earlier than somebody else that would be a monetization strategy that can emerge over time, so I think we still don’t know what we don’t know as these things evolve and very often when people complain about some companies for misusing data, sometimes it’s intentional, other times I don’t think it’s intentional they never thought about those implication.
Chuck: They never thought of the use, right. Yeah, that’s makes, that’s a brilliant point. I, one of the things I do is go around and I, lecture, do lectures about, you know, safety security stuff and then I consult with security department since because I ran Fox and Disney so I know a little bit about guards, right and every policy in many place I’ve ever gone to says,” Guards shall not have their cell phones turned on and shall not use their cell phones at work” and the first thing I do when I walk in and say, “You’re an idiot, you absolutely have to have their cell phones on and they have to be working and you better poke them into your Wi-Fi and a backup Wi-Fi by the way, because if some something goes to crap that’s your communication system, because your radios aren’t going to work, your phones aren’t going to work, because they are going to be over flooded, but if you had a private Twitter account, you guys could be tweeting pictures and data about the attack, about the flood, about the fire, they were so resistant to this idea, because the policy as you, we said very at beginning, the policy says no, we don’t allow that so I can’t change that and the decision maker who I’m talking to doesn’t have the authority to change the policy and so it sits there, this is really interesting.
Anil: Usually policies are written for the extremes, right. People who are going to misuse it the small percentage and so you change the policy for people who might be sitting and that’s why in companies they say we’re going to slow your video down, because people might be sitting and looking at porno at work and or surfing or watching YouTube videos which by the way you do know that a lot of people do but, the matter is in order to solve for that problem, you solve for it in such a heavy-handed way that you leave a lot of other good things on the wayside. You know, coming back to this point. You know, one of the things that I have seen and what we have seen as a group here, is that Europe was way ahead than America or any other, when it came to Smart Cities and discussion about — and if you look at the European countries a lot of what they talk about the Smart Cities has been to how do you maintain or enhance quality of life. If you go to emerging countries and you talk about Smart Cities it’s all about how do I create a standard of living middle class.
Chuck: Oh, interesting.
Anil: If you come to America which has been the slowest and the most resistant till recent and I would argue, I remember giving presentations on Smart Cities in America for three years ago, four years ago and I couldn’t get any bites from many cities, but in the last two and a half years they just exploded and the thing is in America bulk if not most of the discussions with cities so far have been about economic development, attracting talent, attracting investments and attracting people or keeping the people, so the moment you have that as your key drivers or outcome-based metrics a lot of the inputs on privacy, on security, on all those things changes if you’re in the middle class world mindset, which is of emerging countries, I can assure you security comes up, but more for a terrorism and all the other concerns.
Chuck: That’s what I was thinking, right.
Anil: In Europe, because the quality of life is a big issue, privacy becomes a big issue. In America and Munish can give you examples that are almost hysterical to a point, it’s all about data rights, but who owns the data and who is going to monetize the data, so it’s a very different set of discussions around data…
Chuck: That’s interesting, because guys were capitalized society and it is about making money, so it’s it… I didn’t think about the quality of life, what would the word be? Rural.
Anil: There’s a higher level of trust. Chuck, there is a higher level of trust by citizens on what their governments will do and what their government will do for them, so in Europe and many other parts of the world people trust the government a lot more. They are also willing to be pay a lot more of the taxes, so they are willing, not only do they pay higher taxes they know the government will offer them a service level that’s pretty high. In America traditionally there’s been this certain level of distrust or mistrust of the government and their governmental ability to deliver services, so the natural inclination is we would rather have the private enterprise do it than the government, so the Mayors are restricted in the ability to raise taxes, bonds and so what happens is the infrastructure investments become a very challenging thing in America and I have seen in Europe for example a lot of the cities are saying we’re not going to outsource our lighting poles, we are not going to outsource all of these. We want our cities to manage it and we are willing to pay the city managers because they’ll hire the right people to do it. In America you have many cities who are now thinking about outsourcing their lighting poles because that’s a way to manage the economic budget. Not necessarily at a quality of service.
Chuck: Very interesting, I was going to ask you. You already answered, you know. Why does America have the dumbest cities compared to other places and here’s the answer, it’s brilliant.
Munish: So, again if you start thinking about location and privacy and location is a big thing about, you don’t want to track your location, right and I had two questions. I’d asked two questions to my wife I said do you want to have an application that tracks your locations. She said absolutely not, so do you want an application that tells you when you’re near a retail shop that there is a good deal and you can go and pick up the dress you want absolutely, yes. It’s how you frame the problem…
Chuck: She’s being tracked either way, right.
Munish: It’s how you frame the problem.
Chuck: It’s very interesting, right.
Munish: I think that drives economic growth, or security or whatever the reasons it might be.
Chuck: So, let’s talk about some just nuts and bolts basic, right. Cities have budgets like private companies have budgets. You could put your Smart City into a place this big, Cisco is huge its many city blocks it’s very large, it’s a small city in a way, right, little town. I’m not asking for quotes and things, but do you think it’s the, do the costs make it resistant in one way or really it’s the privacy that makes it more resistant. When you come up, when you come out against it, that I see things getting cheaper and cheaper in a lot of ways, right, because technology is there, what’s you most resist is it the pricing or the whole…
Munish: I think it’s the process, it’s the process of how a city…
Chuck: Oh, the process because it’s too complicated people think about maybe.
Munish: Too complicated to procure and the process of how long it takes and RFPs and things of that kind and I think that’s really what’s limiting the speed of Smart City adoption globally and as you start thinking about public-private partnerships on how the private organizations are going to step into to help you to manage lights to save energy or help you to manage traffic congestion. You’re going to start seeing different models and acceleration of the whole Smart City adoption.
Chuck: So, I remember when I used to build things, I was on a construction projects, right, because I’ve been the Security guy and they say put your securities in this big building here, right and the first thing I always said is, “Where’s the future conduit?” They said, “What are you talking about?” I said, “I know you got conduit for this type of building. I want you put it a whole another system for conduit” “For what?” “Because ten years from now all of this stuff is going to be junk and I want a new conduit, whatever is new” “Well, what’s going to be new?” “I don’t have any idea what’s going to be new, but it’s going to be something new, right.” So, when you’re building a city, that’s new like you just talked about. That’s easy right, because you can start from the ground up, how do you handle changing existing infrastructure from a physical build out point of view? The best way to describe it right I mean, you can have wireless things, but it can be challenging, right.
Anil: Yeah, before, before Munish answers that I, what I want to do is I just want to take one point in there, which is, this whole idea of resistance and Munish is right, that there is a lot of resistance about process and all of that, but the first one is, a lot of people don’t know what they don’t know and where things are going and they’ve seen technology promises that didn’t really work out the way they thought it would work out in the past, so there’s always this uncertainty about the promises and all the, and cost reductions are more attractive than potential opportunities to gain revenue as we all know, not just in businesses, but also in personal life that people respond much more to anything that reduces the cost, so where they come back and what we always tell people is, just imagine, eight years ago, there was no or maybe nine years now that there was no iPhone and no iPad’s.
Chuck: How did we all live, how could that have been?
Anil: Today the life is different completely because of that, so we don’t know what seven years from now will come up and while the price is coming down on a per Gigabyte basis or per Mbps basis or per chip base, the fact that the — is becoming more, I’m sorry the Internet is becoming more video based Internet rather than a data based Internet.
Chuck: Now that’s interesting
Anil: That may change education, healthcare and the way we work and live, so where they come back is a, I don’t want to get started and get locked in on a technology that is obsolete, so they say, “We want you to take the risk company” so we say, “Then give us a 20 year lease or 20 year agreement so that we can plan accordingly. That changes their revenue procurement model, so very often they want that solution and they also want an OPEX and then when their procurement time comes, they want to decompose it down because the procurement office is still thinking, which is the lowest price and that changes the dynamics of the cycle if it’s longer, that’s one and the other one is that Mayors have to get reelected. They can talk about Smart Cities, but it is going to take eight years for the first impact of it. They may not be in their jobs, because they’re spending money, so they say, “Tell me something that we can do now that I can show the impact and then I can build on it, which is why lighting, potholes, traffic becomes very attractive.
Munish: The starting point of cities, in fact we are seeing a couple of two or three areas where the real starting points in cities. Number one is lighting.
Chuck: Makes sense. Yeah.
Munish: 30 feet above the ground, 25 meters away, the electricity there, there’s communication and cable there. You need network infrastructure, technology, electronics to connect all the sensing environment and as the whole transition, there are about four billion lights being transitioned from standard L, from standard halogen lights to LED lights.
Chuck: Four billion?
Munish: Four billion globally and every light pole, every time you’re upgrading it, if you’re not adding smart capability to it, you’re losing an opportunity of a few dollars per month per light pole and that amounts to over $3 trillion if you take it, take a look at it globally. You’re losing that opportunity, so now when you’re upgrading the lights, make sure they are smart. Make sure you created the connectivity there. Once you do that, you can offer a public Wi-Fi to citizens on the same network then you can start thinking about having the other sensors, environmental sensors instead of environmental agency procuring their own network and having the sensing of that environment, why not carry and look at the same network, so you use single entry point lighting or traffic upgrades and start looking at creating an open network and then starting to drive different technology adoptions.
Chuck: Would you say for Cisco that traffic and lighting are your easy cells, in a way, easier.
Munish: Security and traffic and lighting are the key insertions points.
Chuck: Are people asking about security more in a Smart City is that a bigger concern?
Munish: Absolutely. Especially because of how the Paris attacks…
Anil: For Cisco just so, you know, we have many players in the space obviously all the way from IT to non-IT players who are getting into Smart Cities. Our value proposition is very simple. We are not a vertical player, we are not a lighting solutions provider, we are not a traffic solutions provider, we partner with the ones who provide right solutions. Our job and what we are really good at, is as all of these things get connected as Internet of Things connects everything, then what happens is you’re going to drown in the sea of data and the majority of the data is useless. So, the idea of collecting the data and then shipping it back into a data warehouse where you do the analytics and then say, “Oh these are useless”. What we are saying is that you need responses that are quicker and at the point where the data is being collected, so as everything moves to the edge compute and storage and the analytics at this edge to respond to either a simple activity like a traffic instance management or a much more serious one where in a hospital for a surgery, or in a terrorist attack or some other kind of accident that requires medical attention.
What we’re saying is the more, you can put intelligence out in the network, the more they’re seamlessly connected the more that they are able to share the data in a systematic manner the better off you are. Mayors get it, everyone gets it, so we come back and saying we are not, we are not coming in and giving you analytics for those traffic we’re telling you whatever you choose as long as you keep them open standards, open platform that they can be connected in a systematic matter you cannot find a better partner who can seamlessly integrate those things in a way that is not only easy for them to be converged, but also that they are secure, because that is why we spend $13 billion a year on R&D plus M&A types of things to build that capability on a constant basis. So, the whole point is, we are, we are, we are investing so that you can have a very systematic and by the way, having said all of that we’re not suggesting that we are at a stage where it’s 100% secure, or there is not going to be to hack that and come in. In fact our Executive Chairman John Chambers famously said there are two types of companies.
Ones that have been hacked and the others who don’t know they have been hacked, so those are the only two kinds of companies, so the point is not whether you’re going to get hacked or whether hacking attempts are going to come in, some of us will have a higher level of hacking attempts than the others. The question is can we create a network that is secure at the edge, so that we can connect all these devices, all these individuals, all these processes that collects all this data and that is what our play is. We come in infrastructure up and we are saying we connect things at the base and then the software and the analytics on the top can come in that makes it much easier for infrastructure companies and for Mayors to understand, because they think in terms of roads, they think in terms of street lights, they think in terms of parking spaces and so we just say “Can, you connect them in a way that you can come up with new insights and new monetization. For example 40% of all public parking spaces in a city goes wasted because you don’t know they exists and by the way parking is number two or number three revenue source for a city. Well it’s a very simple story when you go in and say, “Why don’t we connect the parking lots, we put them into a Cloud platform, make it accessible for anyone coming in, to look for what is the closest parking space that is available today to the location they want to get too, so they’re not driving around for two or three hours looking for spaces in there.
Chuck: I’ll take two, maybe three of these. I want to buy three of them. Gentlemen, been a fascinating discussion. This is very, very interesting and I’m honored have interviewed you guys. I think Cisco has the right idea and I look forward to more discussions about this.
Munish: Thank you.
Chuck: Thanks for coming on to Security Guy Radio.
Anil: Thank you, Chuck. It’s fun.
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